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Poll: Should Washington try to rescue the Big Three automakers Ford, Chrysler and General Motors?

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  1. #26
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    Wow, for once I actually agree with you Posh. The downfall of one of the big three would have a devastating ripple affect throughout the whole country and around the globe. It will also be much more perceptible than anything that's hit so far... where I live things are exactly the same as they were six months ago, we haven't felt the stock market craziness one bit... GM, Ford, Chryslerberus go under, there's about 200 of the best paying jobs in the area gone.

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    Theirs nothing wrong with the cars the big three make.Quality as good as any, class for class.They just haven't been managed properly for today's world. Little, or no visible effort to build more efficent vehicles.
    It's going to take a group effort to get them back running strong again.
    Probably need some sort of goverment package.
    File bankruptcy re-organization to buy time and re-tool for more efficent manufacturing, and more efficent cars. The big 3 are building decent cars, but nothing to seperate them from Asian auto's.
    Unions need to come off some of that 58.00 an hour wage. The U.S. based Asian plants that are non-union pay 28 to 38 bucks an hour. The big 3's cost structure is a problem.

    Just bad management.

    If the government is going to throw money at failing company's, I would rather it go to the auto makers than AIG.

  3. #28
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    You know whats funny about this all? Everything that has happened?

    I seem to recall Luma stating many times we are going to start seeing some huge changes on this planet.

    Around 2012 we are gonna see some BIIIIG ones.

    Mark my words AGAIN.

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    Luman has his crystal ball out,what do you think Lume,will i be getting a tan in February here in Toronto?....can't wait for 2012!...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave123 View Post
    Luman has his crystal ball out,what do you think Lume,will i be getting a tan in February here in Toronto?....can't wait for 2012!...

  6. #31
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    Das right...I have a crystal ball. I melted all my watch crystals down. I see all


    OOOoooOOoOOoOoOooooooOOOoOOOoooo


    Speaking of a tan... I need to go to the tanning bed. Wooooo

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple-d View Post
    Unions need to come off some of that 58.00 an hour wage. The U.S. based Asian plants that are non-union pay 28 to 38 bucks an hour. The big 3's cost structure is a problem.

    Just bad management.
    Agreed.

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    Starting to give money to the big three is a big mistake,it will be a money pit,they are not profitable now and they won't be in ten years,the Gov will have sink money non stop,it will never end.

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    If they file bankruptcy, it doesn't dissove the company. It holds of financial obligations, and gives them time to re-group.
    Maybe get a government loan to re-tool for efficent manufacturing, and more efficent cars.
    Pumping money into the same company's with no changes is endless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple-d View Post
    If they file bankruptcy, it doesn't dissove the company. It holds of financial obligations, and gives them time to re-group.
    Maybe get a government loan to re-tool for efficent manufacturing, and more efficent cars.
    Pumping money into the same company's with no changes is endless.
    Im with TD here...I think they need to go through with restructuring before we throw money at them. Throwing money at something is the core of American problem solving.

    As far was what the American car companies are making...in the 80's the big 3 were in the mind set, "It doesn't matter what we make, it could be a turd with wheels and they will buy it." They started falling behind in style, design, and innovation. The only thing new to come out of Detroit the last 20 years is the SUV.

    There is so much wast and overlap. Do we really need a Cadillac, GMC, and Chevy version of the same car? Each with 4 different packages and 100's of options? Yes I know Honda has Acura, Toyota has Lexus...but they don't look the same and you only have few options.

    The US car companies in my opinion have spent their time competing with each other rather than the rest of the world. I am sure in their minds there was no other competition. I think they should look at downsizing, eliminating some 'brand' names, and consider a merger to become more competitive in the world and the US. This happened in the aviation world more than once. ie; Boeing, McDonald/Douglas, Lockheed/Martin...and all of our European aircraft manufacturers.

    BWP...out of breath!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple-d View Post
    If they file bankruptcy, it doesn't dissove the company. It holds of financial obligations, and gives them time to re-group.
    Maybe get a government loan to re-tool for efficent manufacturing, and more efficent cars.
    Pumping money into the same company's with no changes is endless.
    Bankruptcy, even Chapter 11, will kill them... would you buy a car from a bankrupt company?

    You have to remember that most of the population makes no distinction between Chapter 11 (reorg) and Chapter 7 (liquidation) all they hear is "bankrupt". The headlines will be "GM declares bankruptcy" or "GM goes bankrupt" not "GM decides to reorganize"... that's a massive blow to consumer confidence on an item that they expect to be able to keep for five to ten years.

  12. #37
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    I still haven't heard anyone give a reason other than charity or welfare. That is what bailing out the automakers is, it is welfare.

    Can't anyone give an actual business related reason to bail them out? Something like, "they have excellent designs ready for future production, they have the best technology for more environmentally safer cars, they have a plan on how to reduce the costs of producing their cars, they are only having cash flow problems, their business model is sound...etc."

    I haven't heard it cause it isn't true. And THAT is why they should go under. Hell, they've been dead in the water for years now. Their friggin cars are horrible (other than the engines). Designs? Bad. Style? Bad. Average cost to produce a car? Sky high. Why in the world would that kind of business deserve to get bailed out? The answer, they don't.

    It's too bad people would lose their jobs. I feel great compassion for those individuals. But this is business, not charity. Do we keep bad businesses around based on charity? And don't give me that "blow to the economy" "we can't afford that" crap. We can't afford to keep crap companies like this around, that is what we can't afford.

    Let them die, then somebody smarter and better will buy their assets and make better cars.

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    Ok, I amazed what a short term memory most people here have.
    Do we all not recall how many AMERICAN MADE SUV'S we have all be buying for the past 10+ years. Gas prices skyrocket and we stop buying them leaving GM, Ford and Chrysler with a boat load of unsold gas guzzlers. They have to push all kinds of rebates to try and move these things leaving then with no profit and in many cases a loss on these vehicles. And for the record, Toyota, Honda and Nissan are all feeling some pain too. Should detroit have been more diversified in their product offerings? No doubt, but it's had to stop selling vehilces that AMERICANS can't get enough of. 2005 marked the first time in history light trucks out sold passenger vehicles.
    And to retool and design more fuel efficent vehicles take a bit of time, at least 30 to 38 months, it dosen't happen overnight. In fact GM and Ford were both doing pretty well through the early part of 2000.
    Then there are the labor cost that the Big 3 have that no foreign mfg. has when bulding vehicles here in the US. The Big 3 have an overall labor cost of $78.00 per hour while the foreign mfg have a 42.00 per hour labor cost. Now this figure dosen't just represent pay rate, it includes benifits and the cost to cover retired employees as well.
    I think the Big 3 have done a pretty good job competing with the foreign mfg with their labor cost almost double.
    And don't think for a minute that US Car companies are the only auto mfg that have gotten in over their heads.
    Nissan would be gone today if Renault didn't jump in and buy 40% of the company and then run it back to profitabilty. Mitsubishi needed a bailout a couple years back and got it from the Mitsubishi Bank ( a different company).
    Here is another question to ask yourself, if the forigen manage their auto companies better then the US, why couldn't Dalimer make a go of it with Chrysler. They bought them 10 years ago for just under 40 billion and sold them last year for what amounted to 650million. Aloss of 39 billion and change.

    I just feel it's too easy to say they build crap, and are mismanaged. It's a sure show of how little you actually know about the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Posh View Post
    They haven't ever really had any, Pug. Chrysler had one in the early 1980s and the government ended up making almost $350 million on the deal. Recently, Chrysler actually was making a sound profit but the costs of their pension funds and healthcare costs eroded much of it! The same with all three, really.
    It's easy to say let GM die but what's your reasoning behind it? That's what I want to get to, the thought processes behind why people think these multi-national companies should be alllowed to go down, taking so many people down with them.
    Oh my. So you are saying it's the unions fault that Chrysler (and the big 3) is having trouble turning a profit? lol...
    Oh me oh my oh...
    Actually for the first time in almost 2 decades GM is putting out a halfway decent product. In fact Buick is the biggest selling import in China. This theory of the workers pay and benefits is what is costing the big 3 to tumble is an out right ridiculous lie. Gm's CEO is capping almost 10 mil a year base. Don't cry for me Mr. Wagoner. 7 years on the job and still not a penny earned. Wait until you see his golden parachute. This problem cannot be debated as to why, that's already been determined, but more as to how come. How do you take advantage of a buyer for 20 some odd years and then in the aftermath of being destroyed by your competition ask for loyalty, and in the same breath, blame the working man who really in turn is your loyal base buyer? The big 3 have treated the American buyer and worker like a red headed step child. You don't fix that over night. It is fixable IMO, but lets face it. CEO's need to be paid, and sellouts need to be divided, and the common man/buyer/worker, needs to be blamed, and pay for everything first. No, the government should not bail out any of the big 3. They have a huge market who has been dying for a quality product at a fair price just waiting for them to make a move. Whats even more shocking is, they have the capability. Unfortunately, there counterparts dominate that market. How did they do this? Media hype? Cost effective cheap labor wages and non paying health care? lol...Please.
    Corporate greed Mrs. Gekko, is your answer.

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    Uh, the fact that they need 50 Billion in handouts, and aren't even worth a combined 50 Billion - that means they are mismanaged. Even they admit that!

    Their SUVs sold cause at that time the competition wasn't making many. They are now. Good times are over.


    Your reference to other car makers that need help is irrelavant. Those companies were bailed out by other companies, not taxpayers. One is a business deal, the other is welfare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aximr View Post
    Do we all not recall how many AMERICAN MADE SUV'S we have all be buying for the past 10+ years.
    Yes we remember, it was a stupid trend that died the death it deserved. We all saw the death coming.

    Here's a hint: If it's an exclusively American trend, it'll die. If you can't sell your cars abroad, you're making stupid cars. For cars, where Europe is now is where the US will be in 10 years.

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    BTW, my daily beater is an 06 Chevy Impala. So yeah, I'm a hypocrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwash View Post
    Yes we remember, it was a stupid trend that died the death it deserved. We all saw the death coming.

    Here's a hint: If it's an exclusively American trend, it'll die. If you can't sell your cars abroad, you're making stupid cars. For cars, where Europe is now is where the US will be in 10 years.
    True.

    Except the part about us all seeing the death coming. Almost all saw it coming, the American car companies seem to have blindsighted.

    Duhrrrr, oil prices are gonna rise? Duhrrrr, people are gonna want environmentally friendly cars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwash View Post
    For cars, where Europe is now is where the US will be in 10 years.
    Yikes,a shoebox on wheels....i really hope Canada isn't included in that one,i like my cars....
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinTech View Post
    I still haven't heard anyone give a reason other than charity or welfare. That is what bailing out the automakers is, it is welfare.

    Can't anyone give an actual business related reason to bail them out? Something like, "they have excellent designs ready for future production, they have the best technology for more environmentally safer cars, they have a plan on how to reduce the costs of producing their cars, they are only having cash flow problems, their business model is sound...etc."

    I haven't heard it cause it isn't true. And THAT is why they should go under. Hell, they've been dead in the water for years now. Their friggin cars are horrible (other than the engines). Designs? Bad. Style? Bad. Average cost to produce a car? Sky high. Why in the world would that kind of business deserve to get bailed out? The answer, they don't.

    It's too bad people would lose their jobs. I feel great compassion for those individuals. But this is business, not charity. Do we keep bad businesses around based on charity? And don't give me that "blow to the economy" "we can't afford that" crap. We can't afford to keep crap companies like this around, that is what we can't afford.

    Let them die, then somebody smarter and better will buy their assets and make better cars.
    Actually they have good cars, that sell, right now... just not in the US... but plans are to bring them to the US. They also have plans on how to reduce production costs by migrating to global platforms, in fact it's already begun. Their recent negotiations with the UAW will also save them a metric-sh*t-ton of money as soon as those contracts take affect... people will defend the UAW and say that they aren't hurting the big 3, I'm pretty sure being forced to pay $20+ an hour more than Toyota doesn't help, neither does being burdened with billions in pension costs that other manufacturers just don't have.

    In the last few years they've made a lot of moves in the right direction. You don't need to be an industry insider or anything, you've just got to pay attention to what they're actually doing.

    As for someone buying up GM... Who? Who's going to buy GM? Any capital investment firm is going to look at the clusterf**k that is Chrysler and stay the hell away. None of the other automakers currently in the US or European markets would gain a damn thing from buying them. The only people who might be even be the least bit interested would be the Chinese, but they sure as hell aren't going to keep production in the US, it'll be the same thing they did with MG and Rover in Britain, buy it for the name only or move production to China.

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    The bailout is inevitable! It has to happen for the government. What is cheaper? Throwing a $40m-$50M bone to the automakers to get their act together, retool them to make a cleaner, more fuel-efficient BETTER product OR let it die and watch 3,000,000+ people industry-wide lose their jobs. The unemployment/welfare tab on that one alone, over time, might be waaaay more than $50M.

    As with the other recent bailouts, it would be an investment we would all (hopefully) reap the benefits from in the future, although I wouldn't hold my breath. If you are not a fan of government interference, then this would be a bad bailout for you. That's what is going to HAVE TO HAPPEN. All facets of the industry will have to change, but the primary focus will be busting the unions, unfortunately. The unions have played a very large part in the industry's demise, much like the airline meltdown that has seen THAT industry cave in over the past decade (people flying airplanes into buildings notwithstanding). Given the stubborn-ness and pride of unions, this is why the bailout might be doomed to fail. HUGE concessions will have to be made by the UAW and that is simply not likely to happen. At some point, though, a union member must look in the mirror and ask themselves "would I rather take a concession to save my job (career) or just screw it and let the f#$%er burn". For the record, I am a union employee...I am sure I do not sound like it, but I am! The bottom line is, if you don't study history, then you are doomed to repeat it. The UAW should take a quick study of the current plight of the airlines and realize that some of their problems can surely be avoided with some common sense practices currently not being employed. The average salary of an airline pilot has probnably gone down 35-40% over the past four years and retirement plans have been decimated. Has it helped the industry???? Well, airplanes are still in the air, despite the fact that fuel costs have more than doubled in that time period...at some point, something has to give! Pilots realised that cutting off your nose to spite your face doesn't bode well for job security. That being said, the quality of their product is pathetic, at best. The airline "experince" is a shadow of what it used to be in the good old days.

    I digress...bring on the bailout, but with a REALLY good, forward thinking plan that highlights a transformation to fuel cell and hybrid technology, responsible pay and benfit packages for union employees going forward and upper management payscales that depend soley on company performance.
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    You do realise that large corporations such as the big 3 are able to use projected profit as fact. Base the projection on actual sales, and what do you come up with? Anyone like to take a shot at what that means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrZoSo View Post
    You do realise that large corporations such as the big 3 are able to use projected profit as fact. Base the projection on actual sales, and what do you come up with? Anyone like to take a shot at what that means?
    That means people lie for money. No surprise there.

    Anyone want to buy a fiddle? One previous owner; some bloke named Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwash View Post
    That means people lie for money. No surprise there.

    Anyone want to buy a fiddle? One previous owner; some bloke named Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus.
    Pugwash wins.

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    GM and Ford have profitable overseas divisions. It's in North America where they are loosing money.
    So why is it they can make a profit selling cars to Europe and not in America? They are also profitable selling cars in South America as well.
    We all saw it coming? Who are you including in the "we all"?
    Part of the losses coming the Big 3's ways are loss that are associates with their financing arms. GMAC, Ford Credit and Chrysler Financial. Some how I think it's a little more complicate than you hint, but thanks for it. I'll give it the due attention it deserves!


    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwash View Post
    Yes we remember, it was a stupid trend that died the death it deserved. We all saw the death coming.

    Here's a hint: If it's an exclusively American trend, it'll die. If you can't sell your cars abroad, you're making stupid cars. For cars, where Europe is now is where the US will be in 10 years.

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