User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39
  1. #1
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Francisco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Spain (Europe)
    Posts
    1,013
    GeekBux
    73,166.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Default Improving the reliability of AP seconds at 12 movement

    A member of the forum sent me two APs with seconds at 12 that stopped working. After reading so many problems about this movement I was really interested in finding out why they are having so many troubles.

    The review of the movement showed that was not perfect, but not as bad as failure reports prove. BTW, the review is here:

    http://repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=26985

    A couple of pictures of the APs, they only run for a couple of minutes:



    To fully understand why they are stopping working, we show here briefly the modification OF THE SECONDS. Minutes modification is not problematic.

    Following picture shows the natural output of seconds in the 7750 movement. In position 9, red circle. The modification moves the output to position 12 o’clock.



    To do that, the Chinese worker fits on this output the gear A:



    Gear A engages to gear B:



    And gear B engages to gear C, which “moves up” the rotation to the top plate. Where connects to gear C. Finally, gear E is the output of the AP movement:




    The obvious problem of the modification is that gear C is sliding over the plate, and E has no a jewels in the bottom position. The rest of the modification is well done (jewels up and down).



    SHORT TERM RELIABILITY PROBLEMS.

    I have found out why AP@12 stops running in short or medium term. For example, the two APs showed before had the problems that will be illustrated now. It is an assembling problem, wrong assembling.

    The gear A is wrongly assembled. As a consequence, gear A is not engaging correctly to gear B. Following picture shows how the teeth of the gears are interweaved, stopping the watch.



    Gear A is under gear B, they are not gearing correctly, and the watch stops. After shaking, watch may run again.



    To be honest, assembling gear A is not easy. Solution is removing gear A and assembling it correctly, at the same height as gear B. This is very delicate. You can break the natural output of seconds when removing gear A, and it is not easy to assembly it correctly. In addition, gear A has to be perfectly flat. Here is well assembled:



    Following video shows how bad is running the connexion gears A-B , just as it was assembled in the factory:




    Just check how gear B rotates, but pushed from THE BOTTOM by gear A. They are not well engaged. In some moment, the teeth may be interweaved, and the watch will stop. Now it is possible to understand the members complaining about their AP@12, that only last for a couple of days.

    Following video shows gears A and B, when the position of gear A has been corrected.




    Running is now correct. Although gear B is not running very smoothly (tolerance problem). However, the final movement at gear E is quite smoother. This video was taken when only gears A and B were working.

    Therefore, the first task when inspecting AP@12 movement is checking the position of gear A.


    LONG TERM RELIABILITY PROBLEMS.

    The movement has two points that may reduce its long term reliability. Gear C, sliding over the plate, and gear E, that lacks a jewel. Let us improve the situation.


    Improving gear E.
    Let us remember where gear E is:





    Red arrow in following picture shows the surface we are going to polish:




    Polishing the surface will reduce friction, as plate surface is quite rough. We are helping the movement to rotate all the gears of the modification:











    Improving gear C

    Follows some pictures of gear C, and its two faces:



    Upper face:



    Lower face:




    It is sown that lower face, face that is sliding over the plate, is flat and rough. Upper face has a slot, to reduce contact surface with upper plate. However, the plate where gear C is rotating has a protuberance to reduce contact surface.

    Now we are making a slot on lower face of gear C. The main objective is reducing moment of inertia of this gear, helping the movement to need less power to rotate this gear.

    As seen in following picture, gear C is quite tall, and made of steel…it is very heavy.



    Making this slot is important, therefore, to reduce mass. In addition, second video showed that movement in gear B is not smooth. Therefore, reducing moment of inertia is important.

    Hence, gear C s going to be turned. Diameter of gear C is a bit more than 5.3 mm. Two option for fastening this gear in the lathe. Left, common collet. Right, step collet. I chose right option, better for turning a slot. It requires less pressure, better for not damaging the teeth of the gear.



    Gear C is turned:





    The slot is finished:



    A better picture of the new slot:



    Now it is time of polishing gear C, to reduce friction as well. For polishing I made a base of epoxy resin:



    Polishing the gear (both faces):



    It needs a good cleaning, last step of cleaning, using gasoline:



    Gear polished and ready to be assembled:



    Now, after these steps shown in this tuto, we have increased a lot the reliability of AP@12 movement. Both watches have been tested extensively…running very well.


    SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
    *Have you applied graphite?
    No, graphite is not a long term solution.

    *Have you consider swapping an ETA 7750 movement?
    Asian 7750 can do correctly the job. And an ETA movement, with gear A assembled wrongly, will have reliability problems.

    *Is it necessary to service the movement?
    It is always a good option. However, the most important here is to take care of the modification

    *What about Portuguese and Daytona?
    They are very bad designed, a lot worse than AP@12. Just avoid these watches. However, I think we have wrongly diagnosed the problems of these movements. Friction may not be the only reason of malfunctioning.

    Regards,

    Francisco
    Last edited by Francisco; 03-14-2010 at 10:57 PM.

  2. #2
    Super Duper Spartan
    Waipio Jeff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sun Diego
    Posts
    1,650
    GeekBux
    111,730.69
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14
    Country
    usa
    Region
    us california


    Default

    Outstanding analysis and pictorial! No AP@12 for me.
    ______________________________________

    :-) Nothing Left To Do But Smile Smile Smile!!

  3. #3
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Silverspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Below sea level.....
    Posts
    2,967
    GeekBux
    177,007.08
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    17
    Country
    netherlands
    Region
    european union


    Default

    More then excellent tutorial, as usual, Francisco...very well done

    Will you be offering this mod for the AP ROO sec@12?
    Silver

  4. #4
    Elite Spartan
    jordanhuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    180
    GeekBux
    10,684.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    11
    Country
    usa
    Region
    us florida


    Default

    This is amazing. Thanks for the work putting it together

  5. #5
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Francisco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Spain (Europe)
    Posts
    1,013
    GeekBux
    73,166.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverspeed View Post
    More then excellent tutorial, as usual, Francisco...very well done

    Will you be offering this mod for the AP ROO sec@12?
    Thanks.

    Yes, I am offering it, because this mod works...

  6. #6
    Elite Spartan

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    170
    GeekBux
    21,410.66
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    12


    Default

    there is some hope for AP lovers, you got a pm!

    nice, nice, nice work!

    cheers

  7. #7
    Inventory
    kardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    399
    GeekBux
    44,254.92
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    11
    Country
    argentina
    Region
    uk city of london


    Default

    wow, outstanding TUT, thanks for sharing!! Good to know

  8. #8
    Inactive

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,086
    GeekBux
    224,189.23
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Country
    barbados
    Region
    se stockholm


    Default



    Good tuto, nice pictures, quality work and research!!
    Thanks for posting

    Francisco is DA man!!

  9. #9
    Elite Spartan
    Breitfuture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles & Raleigh NC
    Posts
    2,764
    GeekBux
    142,903.02
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    17
    Country
    usa
    Region
    us north carolina


    Default

    Simply amazing, jaw dropping talent here!
    Whew... Let us know how much for the mod.
    You'll have watches sitting all over your desk in
    short time!

  10. #10
    Elite Spartan
    mumum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    588
    GeekBux
    38,024.76
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    13
    Country
    usa


    Default

    A great push forward here in making the sec@12 reliable. Truely groundbreaking for me.
    I'm in the conus, but now seriously consider you for this mod. Great work.
    Watch crazy...as usual

  11. #11
    Elite Spartan
    chiman123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    In a pub!
    Posts
    1,602
    GeekBux
    139,695.65
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14
    Country
    canada
    Region
    ca alberta


    Default

    You ARE the master!!! Thank you Francisco!!!

    Do you think that you can apply the same fixes to the IWC Portuguese, so that you can make it run better?
    I've got a problem...

  12. #12
    Elite Spartan
    veyron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    969
    GeekBux
    125,247.25
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    13
    Country
    netherlands
    Region
    european union


    Default

    Thanks Francisco! Can't wait to receive the watches!

  13. #13
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Francisco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Spain (Europe)
    Posts
    1,013
    GeekBux
    73,166.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chiman123 View Post
    You ARE the master!!! Thank you Francisco!!!

    Do you think that you can apply the same fixes to the IWC Portuguese, so that you can make it run better?

    Portuguese has some awful design problems that AP@12 has not. For example, the buttons/pins holding the gears. Therefore, the base to improve that movement is very poor...

    AP@12 has a very much better design. You can compare my review of Portuguese, Daytona and AP movements. Therefore, it is worth to work on AP to improve its reliability.

    Regards,

    Francisco

  14. #14
    Elite Spartan

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    299
    GeekBux
    34,320.46
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    11


    Default

    Francisco, this is great! Every time you make better and better reviews and it seems that you have the fix for every issue! All the members from the repgeek are very happy to have you here!

  15. #15
    VC KCB KCIE
    Flashman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    2,169
    GeekBux
    120,077.72
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    16
    Country
    uk
    Region
    uk city of london


    Default

    Awesome analysis. Thanks!!
    Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm whilst wearing a mighty fine wrist watch and smoking a mighty fine cigar! I only sell my reps in VIP so upgrade now!" Sir Winston Churchill

    Gens: Omega Speedmaster Moonie (Professional & Reduced versions), Breitling Blackbird (now sold)
    Favorite Reps: APROO Diver V6, APROO (Black Themes) - IWC Big Pilot 5004 (VAC)- IWC Aquatimer - IWC 3717 (Slevin, Prof AR) - Breitling Blackbird Franken (Domi)- B
    reitling Skyland V2 (Graphite). Omega UPO Franken (Gen Dial, Hands & Crystal) - Panerai 212 V3 - Panerai 111H - Panerai 177H - Hublot Ice Bang V1 - B

  16. #16
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Francisco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Spain (Europe)
    Posts
    1,013
    GeekBux
    73,166.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Default

    thanks friends for your comments.

    I have re-upload one image that was missed...imageshack sometime sucks...

    now you will understand better the tuto.

    regards,

    Francisco

  17. #17
    Elite Spartan
    THXuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,175
    GeekBux
    181,075.57
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14
    Country
    uk


    Default

    Your a legend!

  18. #18
    Removed

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NYC, USA
    Posts
    1,070
    GeekBux
    66,066.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Country
    usa
    Region
    us new york


    Default

    I am very interested in this, please let me know what costs will look like.

  19. #19
    Elite Spartan
    JohnnyKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    591
    GeekBux
    34,600.44
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    13
    Country
    sweden
    Region
    se stockholm


    Default

    Thank you so much francisco for sharing all your knowledge and efforts with us, it's -highly- appreciated!!

    Best regards,
    Johnny

  20. #20
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    chronoluvvv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southbay ... Northshore
    Posts
    9,597
    GeekBux
    10,848,062.84
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    47
    Country
    usa
    Region
    us california


    Default

    THREAD of the YEAR right here, folks
    so many watches, so little time ... even less money !

  21. #21
    Elite Spartan
    rockclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    682
    GeekBux
    40,110.47
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    11
    Country
    usa


    Default

    Every tutorial you have written, I have read. Your work is truly phenomenal!

  22. #22
    Elite Spartan
    jwortho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    63
    GeekBux
    4,847.57
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Default

    It makes so much sense and helps with choosing whether or not to buy a seconds@12 AP versus the MBW sec@9.

    Outstanding!
    JohnCraig on RWG jwortho on RepGeek and RWI
    Gens: Rolex TT YM, Rolex Sub, Rolex DJ, Omega Double Eagle Chrono, Maurice LaCroix GMT
    Reps: Rolex DW 6265 V72 (Ziggy serviced), Old School Rolex Explorer II Noobfactory Black dial, Rolex BK/WM9 YM, Rolex BK/WM9 V3 Sub, MBW AP ROO EOD, PAM 02a, PAM 036, PAM 251, PAM 187 (Ziggy lumed), PAM 287, PAM 168 "Regatta", IWC 3717 (Totally Ziggified), IWC Slevin (Totally Ziggified), Breitling SOSF (Totally Ziggified), Breitling Seawolf Ti -Old School, Breitling V2 BCE Graphite with Lello DW, Breitling Montbrilliante Legende, Corum Admiral's Cup Ti, Chopard MM GMT, MBW PP Nautilus, Omega UPO (totally Ziggified), Omega SMP (totally Ziggified), Cartier Roadster Ultimate, UN MM Diver

  23. #23
    Elite Spartan

    Awards Showcase

    Francisco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Spain (Europe)
    Posts
    1,013
    GeekBux
    73,166.00
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    14


    Default

    BTW, I tried the black date window mod. No difficult, and good results. I really recommend it as a DIY mod.







  24. #24
    Inactive

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    368
    GeekBux
    27,215.95
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Default

    what a great review Seeing this mod being done makes me want an AP secs @ 12. Why can't you be CONUS?!

  25. #25
    VVIP

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,295
    GeekBux
    380,173.13
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    16
    Region
    european union


    Default

    Great man.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-24-2012, 11:39 PM
  2. 237/088 Movement Reliability...
    By poopypants in forum Panerai
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-16-2011, 10:10 PM
  3. Improving reps with Lemania (ST-19) movement
    By Francisco in forum Francisco's DIY Mod and Tutorial Shop (Suspended)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-21-2011, 12:57 PM
  4. IWC Top Gun Movement Reliability?
    By Jondoe89 in forum IWC
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-15-2010, 06:24 PM
  5. Improving AP movement
    By Francisco in forum Audemars Piguet
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-12-2010, 06:42 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



About RepGeek

Replica Geek is a discussion & review forum for all fans of Replica Watches from around the World. Let's Chat About Replica Watches on Replica Geek.

RG Dealers